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How did I get to writing all this from such insignificant get-go? - Le Journal de Saravana [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
Saravana

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How did I get to writing all this from such insignificant get-go? [Oct. 17th, 2004|12:02 am]
Saravana
This is a comment I wanted to post about this post,

"I think the hardest thing in those kind of situation is to tell oneself that you didn't lose worth because of the sad stupid enraging behavior of an idiot.

As for changing the person, I agree, there is no way to answer that kind of stupidity. And anyway, they will always find a way to hurt you unprepared. There is no point preparing for any and all kind of attacks.

The work has to be on oneself, so as not to become bitter. I know about that. I can become very bitter because of the cynicism and incomprehension of people.

So I feel for you. (Do I sound Clintonesque enough?)"

but there is now a long process merely to join feminist, and quite frankly, I try to stay away from that community as much as possible. Too tense. Too argumentative. Too many privileged stars. Too PC for me. Not radical enough. There is an equilibrium of fear in that community, with the powerful allowed to crush the minions at will. A bit like at debate, except that in debate you are allowed to reply to established members in the same manner as they address you. So after my first impulse to join, I unjoined immediately, so as to stay away from that bad influence on my thoughts and my mood.

I have become very wary of communities. They are a way for people to project their ego in a setting in which no truthful, respectful, lively conversation can take place, because you lose all the physical signs and other codes that keep you in line in the real world. I have also become very suspicious of any online relations. I try to always maintain a barrier against people who become too interested in me online. I don't think there is a continuity between the offline and online world. So I always cool them down when they are too eager.

This is also why I am newly working more on myself, my behavior, my speech, my singing, my appearance, so as to put them more in line with how I am. So as to externalize what is inside myself. Because I realized that a lot of what I expressed here when my journal was more public, more lively, didn't find a translation in the physical world. i eveolved a lot in my mentality, but the translation in actual behavior was behind.

And this process of working on my body, my attitude, my physical skills: it does work. Amazingly. *crosses fingers* Lots to do of course, but I do have an objective. Which will require a lot of courage to bring about. And I have always been quite the coward. Eh. It is my cowardness in fact which drives me, because I am so afraid to live without having developed myself to the full.

My fear of the long term consequences of doing nothing drives me to boldness on the everyday path in the fulfillement of my long-term objectives.

The world is surprising.
LinkReply

Comments:
[User Picture]From: ministry_victim
2004-10-16 04:18 pm (UTC)
I left both communities because of the lemming attitude of feminist and the idiocy-to-intelligence ratio of debate. I ended up going back to feminist because it's really the only place on the net where I can learn anything about the movement. The various pages only present one side of any issue, but in such a tense, argumentative atmosphere, I can read any number of different sides.

I just don't post, because i'm a man.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-16 04:31 pm (UTC)
Hmm, the thing is I think I have a better grasp than most people there on the basic feminist issues (I do feel them, probably because my mother was and is a well trained feminist), except I do not have the patience to explain things again and again. I prefer reading books by academics and artists, and confront myself with them directly in my mind.

Though I do agree with you in the sense that feminist and debate are a good training ground for argumentative thought, and it can be good to go there from time to time so as to train oneself.

Except I can actually do that in the physical world with a lot less typing effort and more chances to get to an agreement. Plus, I think I by now covered all sides of most issues discussed on those boards.

Though, then, (second breath), there is the online advantage that you don't need to be as diplomatic and can entertain some ideas contrary to yours.

Which exercise I am not sure of the value of.

Finally, yeah, I will probably go take a look there from time to time. But avoid participating.
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[User Picture]From: ministry_victim
2004-10-16 04:34 pm (UTC)
Exactly.

My opinions aren't completely formed on many of the issues facing feminists, and until that happens, i'm not totally sure I can consider myself one. But, I have learned a lot about the movement from that community.

I don't know. But I think that's why i'm here.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-16 04:32 pm (UTC)
"I just don't post, because i'm a man."

That is stupid.
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[User Picture]From: ministry_victim
2004-10-16 04:35 pm (UTC)
It's easy to say that, and a few months ago, I wouldn't have.

But there are only so many flames someone can take before you realize that, no matter how good your argument may be, your gender will eventually get in the way. Even if you're agreeing in some cases.

It's an interesting, and sickening, double-standard.
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[User Picture]From: loreeley
2004-10-16 05:45 pm (UTC)
I'm sure you have a lot of interesting things to say that people/women in that community could benefit from during discussions and it is sad that your gender is getting in the way. It is interesting how women often complain of being stereotyped, discriminated against - sometimes it is more in the mind then in actuality too - and made fun of because of their gender, yet do the exact same thing to men. I do it too at times, I must admit. It is not something to be proud of. Yet it is somehow seen as acceptable. Like you said, it is an interesting, and sickening, double-standard.
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[User Picture]From: ministry_victim
2004-10-16 06:06 pm (UTC)
It's just something I deal with.

It makes it easier to pick out those to ignore.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-17 02:23 am (UTC)
Ah, but this is probably because you insist on identifying yourself as a man. You don't have to.

Besides, quite frankly, what you have to deal with is not much compared to what opinionated, intelligent women have to deal with. Feminist communities are probably the only place where such people can express themselves without getting called "frustrated", a bitch, a slut, or whatever other ridiculous things a woman gets called in the online world just because she is a woman.

There are nice things to be a woman, but as soon as you speak up, you get the flack.

I therefore understand why some resent the intrusion of men in the place where they can be themselves without the constant judgment of men.

I do too. I think you cannot participate in a feminist community if you didn't have some experience of what it is to be a woman, whether this is because you belong to an oppressed group, or because you identify as a woman and made it clear in your life in some way.

It is not enough to "know" some women or to want to do good, or to have brilliant arguments. See the quote in my previous post. Think about it.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-17 10:02 am (UTC)
PS: I saw in your journal you were planning on cross-dressing in a roleplaying game. This is a very good idea and you will learn a lot, if you play it earnestly, and not only as a game.

Also, from your writing, you didn't strike me as too masculine. If not for your icon... eh, it must suck to be a Canadian hockey fan those days. So yeah, you have potentialities as a woman. Challenge the binaries!
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[User Picture]From: ministry_victim
2004-10-17 01:22 pm (UTC)
I think it should be an extraordinary experiment, and i'm looking forward to it.
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[User Picture]From: loreeley
2004-10-16 06:01 pm (UTC)
I usually only read discussion posts when I am feeling bored - I read them for entertainment, keeping a distance. To me LJ communities are mainly there to ask questions about specific practical things, share artistic stuff and keep updated on current events and happenings. The same holds true for my LJ friends I think; I add people because something about their journal caught my attention and only after a while become interested in their personnel lives and try to get to know them better. When I 'meet' someone interesting I want to know more about them, know their story, know what makes them tick, and so I try to get to know them better on a friends sort of level. I think there is a continuation between the offline and online world. I see them as complimenting each other - some things are missing from my life, due to spacial constraints and my limited knowledge and so I use the internet as an opportunity to seek out these things and fill the holes. The same is true with the people I meet.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-17 02:08 am (UTC)
"I think there is a continuation between the offline and online world. I see them as complimenting each other - some things are missing from my life, due to spacial constraints and my limited knowledge and so I use the internet as an opportunity to seek out these things and fill the holes. The same is true with the people I meet."

You are right. I regretted saying there was no continuity, beause in that sense, there is, and even from the point of view of friendships, there is too.

Except I am very afraid of that, of getting too much into the perfect, illusory, controllable online world, and not enough into the real world where you constantly are disappointed.

Which is why I have to remind myself this is not really an extension of the real world, and more like something you describe: a complement.
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[User Picture]From: loreeley
2004-10-17 03:27 am (UTC)
Maybe it is, or seems to be, perfect, illusory and controllable because you keep your distance in dealing with others in the online world. Your posts have depth, but that depth is most often about yourself and how you view the world, rarely about others - and the same is true about how you project yourself on others who read your writings. Most human interact is foremost controllable and it is only once we allow ourselves to go deeper in our interact with others - both in terms of letting other see more than the surface and looking deeper in others - that things go haywire. Then you will get disappointed and hurt, because none of us are perfect and mistakes will inevitably happen. It is the same offline and online I think. People do not change simply because they can hide behind anonymity, and any mask can only be upheld for so long.


I am not trying to criticise´your journal or how you behave - not at all. I am just pondering and trying to understand your side of the tale.
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[User Picture]From: saravana
2004-10-17 03:48 am (UTC)
That is true, this is why I don't like to express myself publicly in this journal anymore, I have raised too high expectations, and never feel "a la hauteur".

Just wanted to say, too, that I am so impressed at how you write in a tactful, reasoned, respectful and subtly analytical way.
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[User Picture]From: loreeley
2004-10-17 05:02 am (UTC)
Thank you.
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