I left both communities because of the lemming attitude of feminist
and the idiocy-to-intelligence ratio of debate
. I ended up going back to feminist
because it's really the only place on the net where I can learn anything about the movement. The various pages only present one side of any issue, but in such a tense, argumentative atmosphere, I can read any number of different sides.
I just don't post, because i'm a man.
Hmm, the thing is I think I have a better grasp than most people there on the basic feminist issues (I do feel them, probably because my mother was and is a well trained feminist), except I do not have the patience to explain things again and again. I prefer reading books by academics and artists, and confront myself with them directly in my mind.
Though I do agree with you in the sense that feminist and debate are a good training ground for argumentative thought, and it can be good to go there from time to time so as to train oneself.
Except I can actually do that in the physical world with a lot less typing effort and more chances to get to an agreement. Plus, I think I by now covered all sides of most issues discussed on those boards.
Though, then, (second breath), there is the online advantage that you don't need to be as diplomatic and can entertain some ideas contrary to yours.
Which exercise I am not sure of the value of.
Finally, yeah, I will probably go take a look there from time to time. But avoid participating.
My opinions aren't completely formed on many of the issues facing feminists, and until that happens, i'm not totally sure I can consider myself one. But, I have learned a lot about the movement from that community.
I don't know. But I think that's why i'm here.
"I just don't post, because i'm a man."
That is stupid.
It's easy to say that, and a few months ago, I wouldn't have.
But there are only so many flames someone can take before you realize that, no matter how good your argument may be, your gender will eventually get in the way. Even if you're agreeing in some cases.
It's an interesting, and sickening, double-standard.
I'm sure you have a lot of interesting things to say that people/women in that community could benefit from during discussions and it is sad that your gender is getting in the way. It is interesting how women often complain of being stereotyped, discriminated against - sometimes it is more in the mind then in actuality too - and made fun of because of their gender, yet do the exact same thing to men. I do it too at times, I must admit. It is not something to be proud of. Yet it is somehow seen as acceptable. Like you said, it is an interesting, and sickening, double-standard.
It's just something I deal with.
It makes it easier to pick out those to ignore.
Ah, but this is probably because you insist on identifying yourself as a man. You don't have to.
Besides, quite frankly, what you have to deal with is not much compared to what opinionated, intelligent women have to deal with. Feminist communities are probably the only place where such people can express themselves without getting called "frustrated", a bitch, a slut, or whatever other ridiculous things a woman gets called in the online world just because she is a woman.
There are nice things to be a woman, but as soon as you speak up, you get the flack.
I therefore understand why some resent the intrusion of men in the place where they can be themselves without the constant judgment of men.
I do too. I think you cannot participate in a feminist community if you didn't have some experience of what it is to be a woman, whether this is because you belong to an oppressed group, or because you identify as a woman and made it clear in your life in some way.
It is not enough to "know" some women or to want to do good, or to have brilliant arguments. See the quote in my previous post. Think about it.
PS: I saw in your journal you were planning on cross-dressing in a roleplaying game. This is a very good idea and you will learn a lot, if you play it earnestly, and not only as a game.
Also, from your writing, you didn't strike me as too masculine. If not for your icon... eh, it must suck to be a Canadian hockey fan those days. So yeah, you have potentialities as a woman. Challenge the binaries!
I think it should be an extraordinary experiment, and i'm looking forward to it.
I usually only read discussion posts when I am feeling bored - I read them for entertainment, keeping a distance. To me LJ communities are mainly there to ask questions about specific practical things, share artistic stuff and keep updated on current events and happenings. The same holds true for my LJ friends I think; I add people because something about their journal caught my attention and only after a while become interested in their personnel lives and try to get to know them better. When I 'meet' someone interesting I want to know more about them, know their story, know what makes them tick, and so I try to get to know them better on a friends sort of level. I think there is a continuation between the offline and online world. I see them as complimenting each other - some things are missing from my life, due to spacial constraints and my limited knowledge and so I use the internet as an opportunity to seek out these things and fill the holes. The same is true with the people I meet.
"I think there is a continuation between the offline and online world. I see them as complimenting each other - some things are missing from my life, due to spacial constraints and my limited knowledge and so I use the internet as an opportunity to seek out these things and fill the holes. The same is true with the people I meet."
You are right. I regretted saying there was no continuity, beause in that sense, there is, and even from the point of view of friendships, there is too.
Except I am very afraid of that, of getting too much into the perfect, illusory, controllable online world, and not enough into the real world where you constantly are disappointed.
Which is why I have to remind myself this is not really an extension of the real world, and more like something you describe: a complement.
Maybe it is, or seems to be, perfect, illusory and controllable because you keep your distance in dealing with others in the online world. Your posts have depth, but that depth is most often about yourself and how you view the world, rarely about others - and the same is true about how you project yourself on others who read your writings. Most human interact is foremost controllable and it is only once we allow ourselves to go deeper in our interact with others - both in terms of letting other see more than the surface and looking deeper in others - that things go haywire. Then you will get disappointed and hurt, because none of us are perfect and mistakes will inevitably happen. It is the same offline and online I think. People do not change simply because they can hide behind anonymity, and any mask can only be upheld for so long.
I am not trying to criticise´your journal or how you behave - not at all. I am just pondering and trying to understand your side of the tale.
That is true, this is why I don't like to express myself publicly in this journal anymore, I have raised too high expectations, and never feel "a la hauteur".
Just wanted to say, too, that I am so impressed at how you write in a tactful, reasoned, respectful and subtly analytical way.